Curse

RobotMan · Sep 28, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

To give a little background info, today some guild members and myself had played against some very strong players ranging from Dank the Skank (Who I thought quit GW) and Criti Mode (Who I didn't know was in Pink?) and the build was impressive as well. It was very heavy on monk shutdown using mark of subversion and a consistent spam of dom shutdowns.

Yet through all of this I was not overly impressed with their monk, their team did accommodate for him through the use of a ward that I saw and possible off monk draw. Overall we killed this monk 2-3 times yet was not nearly enough to keep our monk alive vs their excellent play, but after the match when we were reviewing how we lost, the question came up of do we need changes to our monk's bar?

For quite some time now (several months) we have not made anything more then a minor skill change to our monks bar when we play in the Arenas. To give an idea it goes something along the lines of

Zben|Draw|M Touch|Spirit Bond|Remove/Veil|Purge Signet|Glyph of Lesser|RoF|

The obvious one is there is no major self survival, and going up against teams using BHA rangers cause a good bit of problems. ALong with this any general mesmer can cause quite the ruckus among our vent, E-Deny has not been an issue in the past, yet after our return after a few months of no GW his wep swap is not what is used to be.

So if you aren't interested in any of the shit above my questions are
a.) Is that above bar suitable
b.) How high of a priority are self survival skills such as Return, Dark escape, Shield Bash, Disciplined Stance etc
c.) Do your monk bars change with every team set up or does it remain consistent

I see a lot of members on the forums such as Moko talk about how mesmers are just np to them, its really just incompetence of other players that cause issues. I have played against moko in the past and even PuG'd a few GvG's with him a long time ago and I do not doubt him in the slightest with his monking ability. Yet I was not sure of whether it is monk skill itself or the monk bar inhibiting play. And if it is simply the play itself, what steps are generally taken against a consistent MoR dom mesmer keeping diversions on you?

Divine Slaya · Sep 28, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

I may have been in group that you are speaking about. What build were you running?

These are my opinions and answers to your questions. Take in mind that these are my opinion and that the bars I run best suit me. I'm sure there will be people that will completely disagree with what I say, but maybe you may find this helpful.

a.) I would take out 'Purge Signet' and replace it with 'Divine Spirit' or a soft-prot skill. I think 'Divine Spirit' is better e-management than GoLE.
b.) I'm not a fan of bringing self survival skills from another class. I believe that using guardian and soft-prots as well as positioning yourself properly are enough to keep yourself alive.
c.) My bar stays pretty consistent, I typically only make 2-3 skill changes depending on what the team build is. For example, I may switch mend condition for draw conditions, shielding hands for spirit bond. If there is alot of defense in the build, I may drop a self-survival skill for another hex removal ect. My goal is to adapt my bar best to the team build we are running.

If you are monking against a mesmer that is just spamming diversions, just keep a veil maintained on you rather than removing it. If your team is taking pressure and you need to heal, just watch what their mesmer is doing and time your heals around his hexes. Removing your veil is fine if you need to heal, but just make sure that you do not get it interupted when you go to put it back up or you will get yourself into trouble. Also, because mesmers will sometimes try to rip off your veil, cover it up with another enchantment whenever you have the energy.

RobotMan · Sep 28, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

I do in fact know that you were the monk I played against since I remember the tag, but I definitely came across as a douche here. There was not nearly enough credit given to you, to an extent our build did serve as a large counter with a heavy offense that was not mitigated heavily by your team who spiked out our monk consistently >.>. At the time I believe we ran a shattering assault assassin, burn arrow, and possibly a reaper's necro? There's little to do vs the sin build I ran along with our burn arrow, I can't recall the fight exaclty but I think there was some focus on guardian for survival, however a few unblockable attacks were used on my part. Not overly impressed is not the best way to describe it, without a doubt you can monk well otherwise you wouldn't be playing in kF or an r5 glad.

And thank you for your opinion, I've contemplated a few changes here and there for monk bars. As of late I haven't seen any huge hex builds, however by dropping the purge sig do you generally pack an off monk purge somewhere? And if not do you deal with hex stacks via interrupts or just keeping off the key hexes?

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Sep 28, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Divine Slaya don't most mesmers spamming viel have drain or shatter? kind of be useless if you try and maintain it if they do.

and id have to agree with instead of purge bring Divine spirit. If you are bothered by hexes and have a ranger slide it on his bar.

pah01 · Sep 28, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

I want to say something about dealing with mesmers.

It is very wrong IMO to say I have no problem with mesmers. I personally think that Moko is being a bit cocky.

If the mesmer and the Monk are of equal skill then that mesmer is eneogh shutdown for that monk [Not even including blackout] for a team to force kills.

Some people think that preveil is eneogh to deal with the hexes like shame and diversion but it isnt, because that mesmer should be carrying some enchant remove. This isnt even taking into account the bars of the rest of the team.

If I face a mesmer and i dont have any issues with him it is not me being leet which I am, It is the rest of my team being leet too.

Think what you can do as a player on your team to shutdown that mesmer.

What is the rest of your teams skills? If you post them we can have a wee look.

Joe

Divine Slaya · Sep 28, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobotMan

do you generally pack an off monk purge somewhere? And if not do you deal with hex stacks via interrupts or just keeping off the key hexes?

Almost all teams that I have played with will pack some hex removal skill on an off monk character. If they don't, I will try to fit in a deny hexes. Even with 2 hex removals, it is easy to become overwhelmed when playing against a hex spam team, so it's important to preveil and to remove on important hexes if necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh [prefession

-zorz]Divine don't most mesmers spamming viel have drain or shatter? kind of be useless if you try and maintain it if they do.

Yeah of course, but it's better to maintain a veil than not to maintain one against hexes IMO. I know there are cases where getting veils ripped off is beyond your control, but that is when you just need to communicate with your team and tell them that the mesmer is causing you trouble. Like I said before, if you have the energy, a cover enchantment helps sometimes if they are ripping off your veil.

moko · Sep 29, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

all i can say is that many monk bars rely on your team build also. you are not alone and your bar should change with your team.

in basically every build we have been using i have been using the same Mo/R bar, always with draw and veil to keep my melees clean.

however, lately we have been dropping more and more defense, forcing me to sacrifice 2 defense skills to myself and going Mo/A. dark escape and return have turned out to be really successful lately, especially with all the a/mos around. also, i switched from veil to deny, the amount of corrupt really puts veil down, although this makes me vulnerable to dom mesmers again, which i havn't been seeing a lot lately, but meh. also i run divine spirit and 5e prots only, no longer using 10e, spirit bond is a no to me anymore, although i might consider it again, thanks to the new smiteway..

Quote:

a.) Is that above bar suitable

it certainly is good on energy and hex/condition control, but it definately lacks a guardian imo.

Quote:

b.) How high of a priority are self survival skills such as Return, Dark escape, Shield Bash, Disciplined Stance etc

i always have one, even when our build supplies protection, when i'm all to myself i bring 2. (dark escape/return, shieldbash/disciplined)

Quote:

c.) Do your monk bars change with every team set up or does it remain consistent

already answered this i guess. monk bars should ALWAYS ALWAYS change with the meta and with your team build. as long as there is no perfect build that goes against everything, monk bars in TA will also remain buildwars. (best example: divert hexes meta in eurp [good teams])

also thanks for the nice words in the OP, gimme a hint in what guilds we pugged?

or under what name? (in pm so we dont spam the thread

)

TheOneMephisto · Sep 29, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobotMan

shattering assault assassin, burn arrow, and possibly a reaper's necro

If your running a BA ranger then dom mesmers shouldn't be too much of a problem. If the enemy dom mesmer is giving you serious problems, just get the ranger to pay more attention to interrupting the mesmer. Unless of course your ranger is getting totally shut down, in which case you're screwed.

But I don't really believe that it's the monks duty to deal with dom mesmers. Monks can't really do that much against them, only maintain veil (vulnerable to removal) and try to keep removing the stuff. It's the duty of the rest of the team to keep pressure up on the enemy dom and disrupt him if he's causing any major problems.

Aera · Sep 29, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Teamplay matters a lot as well. I play with Moko a lot and she always indicates everything nicely. We play without vent or ts whatever, we just ping and draw on the map, ping energy etc or even just type really quickly when needed.

But there's more to it; when playing melee you have to watch and see if your monk might need some help, so you lineback their melee for a bit.

You shouldn't think you've lost right away when you die as monk either. When I'm playing monk I occasionally let myself die and quickly resurrected for free health and energy.

It's HIGHLY recommended to at least have [skill]Draw Conditions[/skill] or [skill]Mending Touch[/skill] in your team, in case you get dazed ( which happens a lot considering the amount of nubs running with thumpers and BHA etc ).

Running is a nice tactic as well. Surely the opposite team won't understand what you're doing and will just shout "OMG NOOB RUNNER!!11!!11!!oneone!!" while your team is running around to regain energy.

All of that can be considered as "self-survival", it's the monk that decides where the game is going because of lack of energy etc.

Legendary Shiz · Sep 29, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

To the question of teams usually having some sort of off monk purge/hex removal.

That answer is YES. Any good build will have it, weather it comes from maybe Expel Hexes, or more often Purge sig. And if it's not on an off monk, it's on the monk and all the characters should be somewhat self-sustaining. For example distortion on a mes, a N/W with dstance, etc.

As for monk bars, most of the monks I've been playing with lately have been having a LOT of luck with the Mo/W bars with dstance. It really is a great skill IMO.

Also there's been a lot of NR going around lately, so watch the enchants people!

Master Ketsu · Oct 05, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Ive noticed Rt/me is a good one for off - monk expel hexes. Mainly because ritualists build arent totally centered on their elite skill as much as other professions and can still spam their stuff just as well without a rit elite.

Seraphim of Chaos · Oct 06, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I definitely recommend some kind melee defense. Whether it be Frenzied Defense, Dark Escape, or even Smoke Powder Defense. An off monk hex and condition removal can prove to be very handy as well. Whenever I roll up a TA with SF, our necro usually has Convert Hexes and Draw.

swift88 · Oct 08, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

i think mo/w frenzied d works quite well. i farm many glad points off the build.

moko · Oct 08, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by swift88

i think mo/w frenzied d works quite well. i farm many glad points off the build.

sorry but it's bad. accept it.

Master Ketsu · Oct 08, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

i think mo/w frenzied d works quite well. i farm many glad points off the build.

In RA, were no teamplay exists, Frenzied D can be a good skill. It only works because most RA'r are too lazy to bring anti block.

But unless you have some sort of a deathwish, dont ever bring it to TA. Its really a bad skill due to the fact that when it is countered ( Which in TA, it will be. Constantly ) Its an automatic lose for the team.

FYI, even in RA [skill]shroud of distress[/skill] + [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] is better then FD. And thats not that good.

swift88 · Oct 08, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

In RA, were no teamplay exists, Frenzied D can be a good skill. It only works because most RA'r are too lazy to bring anti block.

But unless you have some sort of a deathwish, dont ever bring it to TA. Its really a bad skill due to the fact that when it is countered ( Which in TA, it will be. Constantly ) Its an automatic lose for the team.

FYI, even in RA [skill]shroud of distress[/skill] + [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] is better then FD. And thats not that good.

lol........ did you really think you are suppose to use frenzied defense alone?? lol.. think again.. the bar includes sb and you use along with it lmao.... someone's novice to ra/ta...

TheOneMephisto · Oct 08, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by swift88

lol........ did you really think you are suppose to use frenzied defense alone?? lol.. think again.. the bar includes sb and you use along with it lmao.... someone's novice to ra/ta...

Wait, not only do you use frenzied defense, one of the worst defensive options out there, but you also use it along with spirit bond instead of prot spirit? Are you retarded? I would love to be an air ele or something facing you, considering that you'll never have the energy to constantly keep up spirit bond on yourself and heal allies, so either you let your allies fall or I get a bunch of free 250+ damage lightning orbs.

And everyone else assumed that you were using the frenzied defense/prot spirit combo, because that's the only way to even try and utilize frenzied.

Divineshadows · Oct 08, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Wait, not only do you use frenzied defense, one of the worst defensive options out there, but you also use it along with spirit bond instead of prot spirit? Are you retarded? I would love to be an air ele or something facing you, considering that you'll never have the energy to constantly keep up spirit bond on yourself and heal allies, so either you let your allies fall or I get a bunch of free 250+ damage lightning orbs.

And everyone else assumed that you were using the frenzied defense/prot spirit combo, because that's the only way to even try and utilize frenzied.

This is correct despite the fact that prot spirit sucks.

Tab · Oct 08, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

However, if you insist on running FD, its a lifesaver. I don't think anyone was suggesting using PS over SB without FD.

yum · Oct 08, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

With FD, dancing daggers will eat you (ps on or not). And DA sins are kinda popular these days....